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The Mentoring Room - Ask the Working Pros

This is a Public Topic geared towards first-time filmmakers. Professional members of The D-Word will come by and answer your questions about documentary filmmaking.

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Lisa Salem
Fri 7 Dec 2007Link

Hey Evan

Check out: http://nomadsland.com/content/view/56/138/, http://arincrumley.com (look for the video podcasts from the London Film Festival 'Power to the Pixel' event and especially watch the two videos where Lance Weiler of 'Head Trauma' and Susan Buice / Arin Crumley of 'Four Eyed Monsters' detail the processes they went through for getting their films out there – levering their web presences as much as possible). And after you've looked at those, and best of all, check out http://workbookproject.com for all things DIY filmmaking. It's a big subject and you'll probably initially only want to take on a small section of it by the sounds of what you're trying to do, but it's good to know the bigger picture before starting out I think. Nomadsland might be a simpler way of catering to your needs though too and I've given you the link for their 'About' page. http://www.selfreliantfilm.com is another one to look at.

Edited Fri 7 Dec 2007 by Lisa Salem

Doug Block
Sat 8 Dec 2007Link

Good suggestions, Lisa. Have you introduced yourself yet? There's no info about you in your profile so no idea whether you qualify to be a Member. But sounds like you know your stuff, so consider it. You'd have access to many more discussion topics here.


Evan Thomas
Sat 8 Dec 2007Link

Cheers Lisa. I've had the workbook project bookmarked for a few months and it's one of my favourite sites to visit. Thank you for the link to the "Power to the Pixel" panel discussion, i just watched it, very interesting and just what i needed to watch right now.

I think i know what i have to do but i need to learn the technical stuff so i can put it into practice. I'm off to scour the web.


Lisa Salem
Sat 8 Dec 2007Link

Hey Evan – I kinda realised that after I posted.... It might also be useful to check out the videoblogging Yahoo group – at the least it'll lead you to great info about optimum compression settings etc... – just type in videoblogging on the Yahoo Groups homepage and you'll find it – but I realise that's not really what you're after...

And cheers Doug – I just did the formal introduction and will get onto the member/bio stuff too... :)


Brian Boyko
Wed 12 Dec 2007Link

I've got a problem. A key person in my documentary on New Zealand politics sat down to do the interview but refused to sign the release form. We did the interview anyway. On camera, he gave us permission to use the interview in New Zealand's Film Archive and for Online Streaming – unedited – but would not sign the contract.

He's a public figure and it shouldn't be a problem – I don't he'd sue us, but I can see how this can scare off distributors.

Here's what I'm thinking about doing. The problem is not permission to use his words. It's journalism – and so long as he is quoted accurately, it's not a problem. The problem is using his voice and image- the talent release, as it were.

That says to me that my best option, if I want to use him (and he's so key I kinda have to), is to buy a Getty Images picture of him, dump that on the screen, and hire a voice actor to say the exact same thing he said the same way he did during the interview. Because I have permision to use the unedited material online, people can see that the quotes are accurate.

The way I think this would work, artistically in the film, would be to shoot footage of a NZ flag, and have a scrolling screen with a stentorian voice reading:

"Mr [...] was willing to sit down with us for an on-camera interview but was not willing to sign a release so that we could use his voice and likeness in this movie. Because of that, his voice has been reenacted in this documentary.

Those interested in seeing the original footage can go to the New Zealand Film Archives Reference # "X", or go to "www.youtube.com/X" – both of which Mr. X has given permission for."

What do you think?


Joe Moulins
Wed 12 Dec 2007Link

You'll be able to use the interview. If it happened as you describe it, he very obviously consented to be interviewed.

He's a public figure. And a dick, by the sound of it.

Make him look bad.


Brian Boyko
Wed 12 Dec 2007Link

He is... a man used to getting his way.

I'll do the rough cut with the full video interview. If a distributor balks, I can tell them what happened and offer the voice recreation option.

– Brian.


Jo-Anne Velin
Wed 12 Dec 2007Link

When working in news for (Australian) ABC in Europe, I was told on-camera consent is adequate. Did he specifically say no to the images? If not, check with legal eagles but I think you're covered.


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 12 Dec 2007Link

Bryan,

You write that this man is a "public figure." Do you mean that he is a politician or a member of a local/national government? I'm just trying to figure out what you mean by "public."

By definition, if a given person is a public figure and they have agreed to an interview, everything they say is on the record and can be used.

In most countries, the only restriction that I can think of would be filming someone inside their homes without consent.


Brian Boyko
Thu 13 Dec 2007Link

This man is a politician. He holds a ministerial position in the national government of New Zealand. He has obviously agreed to the interview.

There are two complications. 1) The interview took place in his party's caucus room, and we do not have a location release. It's not his home or personal office, but it is an area not open to the general public. 2) The man is VERY well known in New Zealand. He is a famous and very controversial figure here. He holds high national office. But if people in the U.S. don't know who he is, would he be considered a private figure in the U.S. market?


Joe Moulins
Thu 13 Dec 2007Link

I don't claim to be an expert on ...anything, really, but I do suspect you are overthinking this, Brian. This sounds like a cut and dried case of a Big Swinging Dick messing with you.

If you ask this question in the legal forum you may get a more nuanced response, but I don't think you have anything to worry about in this case.


Brian Boyko
Thu 13 Dec 2007Link

Thanks – yeah. When we go over the raw footage, we'll see what we have him on tape saying. :)


Wolfgang Achtner
Thu 13 Dec 2007Link

Brian,

This is really a no brainer.

A Minister is a public figure. He agreed to go on camera (this is proven by the fact that you have the recording). You can use video. End of subject.


Marianne Shaneen
Sat 15 Dec 2007Link

Hi Doug and D-word folks, thanks so much for this awesome resource!

I'm currently in post on a feature documentary. I've been in discussions with a producer and funders who I will probably be partnering with. In looking through older posts I saw that you recommended your lawyer Richard Freedman, highly. I don't know if you're into making public endoresements or renouncements, but that post was in 2003. : )
Just wondering if you would still recommend him and/or if you might recommend another trustworthy entertainment attorney that works with indie directors, and perhaps is not incredibly expensive, in NY?

Or if anyone else might chime in with a recommendation (if such recommendations are allowed)?

Thanks so much!
And major congrats to Doug on A Walk Into the Sea!!!!!!


Marianne Shaneen
Sat 15 Dec 2007Link

Hi again,
another question. Could anyone lay out a basic idea of forming an LLC? Specifically: if I've been making a film and it's in post, and I bring on a producer and funders, and that producer's lawyer draws up the LLC and operating agreement, ...this is where I get a bit confused. If the producer's lawyer draws up the operating agreement and represents the film, is it any conflict of interest or am I at a disadvantage because he's also the producer's lawyer?

Wouldn't I instead set up my own LLC, and from there enter into an agreement between my LLC and their corporation? Or is it standard practice to form an LLC with all the parties involved? I want to retain ownership of my film, so I'm not sure how that works.

I don't mistrust any of these people, I just have no idea how these things work. (obviously why I'm asking for attorney recommendations). Thanks!!


Doug Block
Sat 15 Dec 2007Link Tag

Marianne, it's actually Robert Freedman, and, yes, I still highly recommend him. Here's his contact info . I'd also recommend Dan Satorius – he's in Minneapolis but considerably less expensive.

I'd ask these guys about the LLC as I'm not an entertainment lawyer. But if it were me, I'd set up my own LLC and keep ownership and control.

Edited Sat 15 Dec 2007 by Doug Block

Robert Goodman
Sat 15 Dec 2007Link

2nd that thought. Last money in should be treated very differently than the people who walked with you from the first step.


Marianne Shaneen
Sun 16 Dec 2007Link

Thank you so much! I will look into both.
From what I've read it seems that the LLC can be structured (with all partners) in any way, so I could be sole owner and it determines how payments/points/percentages come in and clarifies what everyone's roles and responsibilities are. But yep, I'm not doing anything without consulting an attorney.
I'll keep you posted. :)


Doug Block
Sun 16 Dec 2007Link

good luck, marianne. tell bob and/or dan that i sent you their way. it can't hurt.


Marianne Shaneen
Sun 16 Dec 2007Link

Thanks Doug, will do!

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Malgosia Askanas
Wed 19 Dec 2007Link

Many thanks for the response to my previous question. Now I have another. Could anyone advise me how I could get hold of a copy Jonathan Lewis' documentary "Reputations: Pope Pius XII – the Pope, the Jews and the Nazis", which was made for BBC2 and shown in 1995? I tried contacting BBC about it through their website, but received no response. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Perhaps there is some way to contact Jonathan Lewis directly?


Marianne Shaneen
Wed 19 Dec 2007Link

Hi Doug- I spoke to both attorneys you recommended, they were both really wonderful and both raved about you : ) (really).
One more expensive w/no retainer, one less expensive requiring a retainer, and both seemingly equally great (knowlegable, helpful, cool).
Many thanks again!!


Doug Block
Wed 19 Dec 2007Link

you're welcome, marianne. sorry i gave you a tough choice ;-)

Edited Wed 19 Dec 2007 by Doug Block

Evan Thomas
Wed 19 Dec 2007Link

Hi Malgosia,

I'm assuming it's not available to buy.

It could be expensive to get a copy from the BBC as it's liklely it's sat on a big shelf somewhere and could cost £££ to get a copy from the master tape. Maybe you would have more joy with contacting Jonathan Lewis?? Might be a long shot though...

It's a bit naughty but it might be on a torrent somewhere on the web? Especially since it features Nazis there always seems to be plenty of Nazi related documentaries available for download.


Darla Bruno
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

Hi,

Wondering if someone can advise me on sound. I'm going to be working with a dp in January on a shoot in a hilltown in Italy for my first doc. Our sound guy can't do it, and my budget already has me eating beans and rice. So we're going without a boom operator. My dp assures me we'll be fine, but all anyone has ever warned me about (and I'm a TOTAL newbie) is how important sound is.

My dp has done other docs, and I trust his opinion; we have wireless mikes and he's got an awesome camera with a good mike, but again--everyone has always said, don't rely on the camera mike. Most of our work in Jan is going to be interviews and b-roll, but are we screwing ourselves without a boom operator?


Wolfgang Achtner
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

Darla,

Have read your previous postings, was under the impression you'd be shooting next summer. You could be fine without a soundman, I have completed several documentaries without one, it really depends on what you're doing.

For interviews and some B-roll you should be fine without one.

I live in Orte, outside Rome and I've worked here zillions of years. if you care to call for a chat, feel free to do so. Remember we're 6 hours ahead of you over here.

E-mail me and I'll send you my phone nr.


Nick Higgins
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

I concur with Wolfgang that as long as your DP sets up the audio well for the interviews you should be fine.

Doing the one man band thing only really gets tricky when you have multiple people talking at one time eg. a dinner scene with lots of people or a hike in the hills with lots of people etc etc, any of these "verite scenes" with multiple people is when an audio tech with boom/multiple lavs is worth their weight in gold.

The camera mic will be fine for b-roll but for an interview thats more than a few feet away it wont be much good. If you take it off the camera and mount it on a stand close to the subject being interviewed it could be a good addition to the lav mic too.

When you go the one man band route its best to acknowledge that it can be done but if and when something goes wrong it definitely takes one person doing multiple jobs much longer to identify problems and correct them than when you have a dedicated sound person doing nothing else.

I shot one man band in a verite scene last week, a demonstration by workers who met at a parking lot and marched a half mile to their factory. It was sub zero temperatures and all was going well right up til the march got underway. The second they set foot on the road the lav went down. I had to march along and try and fix it on the fly. It didnt happen and we had to go with camera mic only until they arrived on site and we managed to rectify. Thats the downside of one man band cause if we'd have had an audio tech he probably could have fixed the problem while I shot on. With only me I had to choose between fixing it or shooting and after a few fumbly minutes I had to give up.

Edited Fri 21 Dec 2007 by Nick Higgins

Darla Bruno
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

Wolfgang, you can find me at editor@darlabruno.com. I am in constant communication with people in Italy, so will respect time difference. My latest thought is that I should find some equipment and do my own sound if a situation requires a boom mic. (I've never even handled one, though-and no offense to an sound people-but desperate times . . . )

So, while I did say this will mostly be interviews and b-roll, I image there might be, say, a farm shot, a pig slaughter, a woman cooking in her kitchen. These are scenarios I imagine that will need additional mic-ing.


Darla Bruno
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

Thanks, Nick! Just so you're clear. I'll be there with the dp. I'm not operating the camera . . . and I'll have my hands free. So I'm just wondering if there's a way I can help if I have a boom mic.


Doug Block
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

I was gonna suggest you do your own booming when necessary, Darla. On camera mic can work in many situations but unless you're trying to be really inconspicuous, booming is better.


Darla Bruno
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

Okay. I shadowed some filmmakers once, and I get the point of how to hold the mic toward what's being filmed, but all those dials and channels – no idea. Is this really something I can do if I borrow a boom mic? (I'm feeling heartened.)


Erica Ginsberg
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

Darla, can you pay a soundman a half day of pay before you go to train you in how to use the dials and channels? For what you want to do, it really is not as daunting as it may look. And, once you're there, perhaps do a test run interview to start so you can get comfortable with the boom before going into the keepers.


Darla Bruno
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

Thanks, Erica! I think largely I'd like to use wireless mics for our interviews, yet, when I think about those I want to interview for this shoot, many will be women who I want to be in the kitchen cooking or preparing something or a cafe owner being behind the bar of the cafe (there might be clanging of dishes) – so in these instances, could we get away with wireless, or is it best to use boom? Anyway, I think you're right. I'm going to see if I can get a quick-and-dirty lesson and find the equipment. I've still got some time.


Christopher Wong
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

darla, you should be fine doing boom. a reasonably intelligent monkey could do it – i should know because i've boomed many of my shoots. what is not so easy is the sound mixing. again, it's not rocket science, but if you are a boom novice, then you probably don't want to be taking one hand off of the boom to adjust levels.

the main thing is to be sure of what you are shooting. if you absolutely know that you will only be shooting broll and interviews, you can forget about the boom pole. but if there's even a chance that there will be improptu conversations between two or more people, bring along the boom pole, and record sound directly into the camera. If you and your DP don't want to be tethered together by a sound cable, you can also look into getting a wireless boom setup. this is kind of the best of both worlds (for you) where you don't have to adjust levels (the DP can do that), and you have freedom to roam around.


Darla Bruno
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

Great, Christopher. This sounds really promising. So I can handle the boom mic and I really don't need to worry about sound mixing? If I have a boom mic with cables, I'm tied to my DP; if I have a wireless, I'm free to roam. (But then how does DP adjust levels in either case?)

I do imagine there'll be situations where I will definitely need it. Thanks for the great advice!


Christopher Wong
Fri 21 Dec 2007Link

here's where my ignorance with sound will be very clear... and i really hope someone like rafael jumps in quickly with advice. but i do know that it's fairly easy to rig one of your wireless mic systems so that your wireless receiver is plugged straight into the camera where the DP can then adjust levels. (small word of warning: some DPs are not accustomed to adjust sound levels while they are shooting...) on the other end, you'll connect the wireless transmitter directly to the boom mic, but you'll need to make sure you have the right kind of cable that can go between. i recommend you ask your sound guy for advice.

good luck!


Marianne Shaneen
Sat 22 Dec 2007Link

Hi again, film folk,
I'm making my first feature doc and I'm in post-production, talking with potential producers about raising finishing funds and helping put together a post team and complete the film. I'm wondering if anyone can give basic suggestions for how such deals are typically structured? Does the producer get a salary, a deferred fixed payment, a percentage, points, part ownership? Perhaps all of these things are done but as the doc is in the editing stage I'm not sure what's appropriate or standard. If anyone could share their experience/knowledge on this, I'd really appreciate it!
Thanks!!!!


Doug Block
Sat 22 Dec 2007Link

There is no standard, Marianne. At least in the U.S. A typical scenario, and one I've used when I've come on a film part-way through as a co-producer, is to get a fairly low guaranteed fee (deferred) vs. a percentage of funds raised. And I mean all funds raised from that point on, not just funds the producer raises. And, perhaps, a profit share. Obviously, if the producer raises more money than the guaranteed fee, they get the higher. I should add this also includes revenue that comes in from sales until the film gets into profit (should it be so lucky).

I'd also be very clear about credit. They get producer credit if they stay on through the distribution of the film. If they leave after post but before the distribution, they might get a co-producer or executive producer credit.

But it's all negotiable...

Edited Sat 22 Dec 2007 by Doug Block

Tony Comstock
Sun 23 Dec 2007Link

I understand the budget for this project is stretch thin, none the less you might want to consider diverting at least a portion to a t-shirt or two, espeically if you're going to be doing boom work.


Wolfgang Achtner
Sun 23 Dec 2007Link

Darla,

Allow me to give you some advice that will be different than what you may have heard and want to hear.

As I wrote you previously, and Nick has confirmed, you should have NO need for a soundman. Just make sure that your cameraperson/DP is always wearing headphones so they are constantly able to keep track of the quality of the sound being recorded.

That said, I don't understnad how – if your crew will be just yourself and the DP – how you think that you could be recording sound, especially during interviews. Who''l be asking the questions?

Even when you're out and about shooting B-roll, you should be watching what your DP is shooting and watching everything that's going on around you. I'm convinced that it would be a big mistake for you – if you're an absolute beginner, as you've described yourself – to worry about recording sound. There are many other far more useful things that you could be doing instead.

First of all, during interviews, concentrate on the process: make sure that you are listening carefully to your subjects, make sure that you're getting the answers you need, that you've asked all the right questions, etc.

When the DP is shooting B-roll, you should be keeping a checklist on shots, thinking if you've got everything you need, about what else you need, how the different elements (visuals, interviews, etc.) will work together, thinking about how to shoot a particular scene so it will fit in with your story etc.

Some key points here.

1) Preparation work and research can be the make-it-or-break-it factor for any documentary. Have you researched your subject well enough? Do you know what to look for, where to find it? That said, learn to be alert and open-minded because many times, in the field, a story can take an unexpected turn and you need to be ready to see it happen and follow the story down a different lane than the one you'd expected.

2) Do you have a story concept, do you know why you are shooting this documentary and what you want to show us? If you do, you certainly haven't told us! Do you know how to visualize that concept? Have you decided what visual elements you will need? Have you prepared a hypothetical shot list based on your concept? Remember the golden rule: "Show me don't tell me."

3) Treatment. Have you written a treatment? Barry Hampe in his MUST READ "Making Documentary films and videos" writes that a treatment "sets forth the idea of the documentary comprehensively enough to be understood , but with enough flexibility to allow for chance, change, and the occasional flash of creativity. A treatment is often referred to as an outline for a documentary. But it's much more than that. It's really an explanation of the documentary. It describes the content of the documentary and the style in which it will be shot. What it is about. What will be included. How it will be shot. And what il will look like. It includes all the elements – the people, places, thinsg and events – whihc must be a part of the documentary. And it tells how the documentary will be organized to communicate with the audience."

3) Communication. In addition everything else, communication between you and your DP is a crucial factor. Unless you have told her/him everything about the story, what you want to tell and how you intend to tell the story, s/he is shooting with a partial blindfold.

4) Ask for advice. Find someone who has already directed/produced several documentaries that you can trust and be open about what you want to do. Tell them what you would like to do and seek advice.


Doug Block
Sun 23 Dec 2007Link

You shouldn't be monitoring the sound levels, I suppose, but there's no reason you can't be holding the mic. Gives the camera person more freedom and you'll get better sound.


Darla Bruno
Mon 24 Dec 2007Link

Hey Tony – T-shirts? Huh? Why did I get lost on that one?

Wolfgang – Thank you kindly for this super helpful information. Sorry I wasn't more clear to begin with, but I was just posting on sound. This round of footage is essentially part of my research. I just wanted a camera person there with me (since I'm not well-versed or experienced in using a camera yet) while I conduct some interviews, get some b-roll, and aim to put together a trailer when I return, then write a treatment, edit the footage, and begin looking into grants and sponsors. So, maybe this isn't the traditional way, or a little backwards, but it's all learning to me.

I have a mini-production schedule for when I go, a wish-list shot list, and necessary shot list. My days are filled. My aim is to contrast simple village living with the influence of modern life. That will sharpen and take form after this round of footage but that is my beginning angle.

Beyond that, the sound is a concern of mine right now. My DP and I have a similar vision, but our sound man backed out, and while the DP wants to move forward, I'm being particular about sound. I'd CRY if we ended up with bad sound.

I can hold a boom in some situations, but no, it's not ideal for me.

Anyway, I also just noticed that my DP is working in PAL. Yikes. Another issue. So while we have a similar vision, it's the technical aspect of things that are a bit overwhelming at the moment.

I just realized he has a lavalier, so I wonder . . . well, here's what he has . . .

Filming equipment: Sony PD 170 (PAL, grandangular lense, rain/snow cover) + Manfrotto 128RC tripod (I have heavier ones, but this is probably the best choice for the type of work on the field we'd be doing in XXXX) + Sennheiser Wireless Trio 100 G2 Series (full audio kit with a lavalier and a directional microphone).

Edited Mon 24 Dec 2007 by Darla Bruno

Megumi Nishikura
Mon 24 Dec 2007Link

Hi, I'm young emerging filmmaker who has a few short documentaries under her belt. I want to make a documentary director's reel and I was wondering if anyone could give me any tips or direct me to some online director's reels.
Thank you and have a happy holidays!


Wolfgang Achtner
Mon 24 Dec 2007Link

Darla,

Just for your information – and eventually that of other newbies (this is not meant to scold you) – your last post is a perfect example of why one needs to prepare and, in the case of a total beginner, more than anything this means to seek advice BEFORE embarking on a project.

For example, you write: "I also just noticed that my DP is working in PAL. Yikes. Another issue. So while we have a similar vision, it's the technical aspect of things that are a bit overwhelming at the moment." Case in point. Any one who's ever worked overseas would have known that this is an issue that would present itself for a US_based person working outide the US.

Being a non-technical person (as well as the fact that you don't want unnecessary details to get in the way), I will try to limit my exploration of this topic to minimum vital aspects. The US uses an analog TV system called NTSC, France uses SECAM and almost everyone else (excepting Japan) uses PAL. All you need to know is that PAL has a better image compared to NTSC (it has greater resolution because each frame has 625scan lines vs 525).

This "problem" leads to several options. You may want to shoot everything in PAL and only after your final edit, convert your completed project to NTSC. Or, you might shoot PAL this time and NTSC next time around.

Converting video from PAL to NTSC, if at all necessary, is no longer a big deal. Today, if you really needed one, you could buy a cheap converter, otherwise, if you just need to convert a few minutes worth of tape, you can rent or go to a company that provides the service.

The PAL vs NTSC issue was a major concern in the days of analog TV and the early days of digital, but is hardly a big deal, especially with regards to HDTV.

First of all, if you'd been shooting in HDTV, most (or all, I honestly don't remember) videocameras have a switch that allows you to shoot in either NTSC or PAL. I see from your post that you're not shooting in HDTV, otherwise your DP would have told you about the possibility.

Also, the SONY PD170 will give you a 4:3 image and I'm not sure that this is the best way to start off a new project. I'm still shooting my current doc on 4:3 aspect ratio because I'm using a videocamera that I have been using for 7 years now and, especially, because I started shooting it this way 3 years ago. I think you might be best off shooting in native 16:9 (I'm referring to the fact that all modern TV screens have a wider image).

By the way, have you thought of asking your DP to rent a HDTV videocamera? They are easy to find here and that would allow you to overcome the PAL/NTSC issue. Furthermore, have you talked to anyone about whether or not – in consideration of a particular kind of future use – you might want to be shooting this project in HDTV?

In any case, if you decide to edit using Final Cut Pro, you'll be able to edit using both systems, so you'd only need to convert edited segments at the very end.

I'm sure others here who are used to working in the NTSC world can give you all the necessary advice and, luckily – as I wrote – today this is only a minor problem. Again, a good example of X other problems that could be solved, or better yet avoided, by talking to the experts BEFORE you jump.

Unfortunately, the equipment we use to day is so simple that anyone thinks they can use and, as a matter of fact they can, point and shoot. Period. Documentary filmmaking is something completely different.

To make my point clear, in many countries today, almost everyone has a videocamera, so in our minds it has become a simple ubiquitious instrument, almost like a ballpoint pen or a pencil. Everyone could afford a pencil but that didn't automatically make them a Michelangelo or Shakespeare.

Enthusiasm is great but remember that documentary filmmaking is a very complex craft that deserves a little bit of respect. Just because it's cheap – or at least a lot cheaper – than before doesn't mean that it is easy. In fact, in many ways, the possibility to work solo, or in small teams has made projects cheaper and, therefore, in many cases more feasible and it has opened up to the masses a world that was previously reserved to very few people and power centers (this is the more interesting aspect of the so-called "digital revolution") but it has also made things a lot harder than they were before because you need to know learn many skills and perform all of them well.

Also, appropriate research could allow you to find out that it might be better to plan your trip at a time that allows you to shoot a certain popular festivity or activity that takes place at a given time of year, etc., etc.

Regardless of how easy or cheap it seems to fly to Italy to do whatever you want to do, remember you don't want to be wasting your precious time and/or your own hard-earned money unnecessarily, as well as the fact that – even though you might not be aware of it now – you may have a one-off chance to shoot certain events or people (for various reasons) and you need to do it "right" the first time.


Athanasios Palos-Papantonopoulos
Mon 24 Dec 2007Link

In reply to Darla Bruno's post on Fri 21 Dec 2007 20:03 EET :

Darla,
Get the necessary training to use effectively the lavalier wireless mic you've got.
Thanos


Darla Bruno
Mon 24 Dec 2007Link

Thanks, again. This really started out as a question about sound.

My DP has agreed to shoot in 16:9 format. The PAL conversion isn't a concern at this point. My DP is Italian and only works overseas.

Wolfgang, again, thank you for your help. My learning curve really comes around the technical stuff, which is why I hired someone, but since the sound person backed out, I'm left scurrying around to find a solution. Again, my original post.

I can assure you that there is a festival I'm going there for in January; hence, the decision to shoot at that time (otherwise, why freeze my butt off?!) I have interviews set up, a b-roll list, a wish list, an idea for a trailer, a tentative treatment. I'm not sure what gave you the impression otherwise. And I'm not really hung up on any outcome, luckily. This is a true interest and passion and learning the ropes right now is worth every penny I'm spending. (My schooling was in writing and film theory, not shooting/editing/or anything technical), so I'm devouring the information and so glad to be learning and for the people who have given their time generously to help me.


Tony Comstock
Mon 24 Dec 2007Link

January? In that case you'll probably want at least one sweater. Maybe a jacket too.


Wolfgang Achtner
Mon 24 Dec 2007Link

Great.

I just had the impression from your posts – maybe just my interpretation – that you seemed worried by overcoming a problem with taping sound when, if anything, that will be the least of your worries.

As I mentioned before, I don't think it's a good idea (nor is it necessary) for you to worry about sound, especially in an interview situation when your responsibility has to be listening carefully to the interview.

Make sure that throughout your trip you keep your eyes open for unexpected opportunities and first and foremost: ENJOY YOURSELF!


Thomas Beach
Tue 25 Dec 2007Link

I have spent the last several weeks conducting format research etc. Thanks to all who have offered opinions. I have settled upon shooting 720p with the P2 and have found a good camera rental in my area.

With this issue completed, I have some other questions regarding software that I would appreciate input on.

My doc will be photo-driven, meaning that I will be telling my story primarily with original pictures from archives. Additionally, I will be using on-camera interviews, character V.O.'s as well as narration. My question is this: Can I replicate traditional "camera moves" with still photos via Apple's FCP Studio 2? Specifically, Motion 3? I need to be able to zoom in/out, reframe for CU's etc on existing photos during my editing. I believe everyone here understands what I'm getting at. Can I accomplish these photo manipulations within FCP Studio 2 or must I perform these actions with yet another program such as Photoshop and/or Aperture?

Additionally, I presume the archived photos at my disposal which are only 600x600 dpi are not sufficient for HD broadcast parameters as well as zooming in. What dpi rez rates must I have them scanned at, at minimum in order to avoid pixelation etc. within my project?

Thanks in advance for your help here.


Thomas Beach
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

In reply to Darla Bruno's post on Fri 21 Dec 2007 :

Darla,

After reading all of these posts regarding sound, I felt a need to chime in.

Although I am a novice with a camera (that's why I'm hiring someone to shoot for me!), I am a professional production sound recordist with many years of experience. With all due respect to Mr. Wong, it is uninformed opinions like these (a trained monkey could do it) which end up killing more films due to horrible production sound. And in the case of doc work, it is, most likely, unfixable in post. Interestingly enough, I never see such flippant remarks tossed about regarding shooting with a camera. After all, isn't camera op'ing nothing more than pushing buttons and turning dials? Of course not! It requires knowledge and a specific skillset. Believe it or not, so does good production sound. If you own Rabiger's book "Directing The Documentary", take a peek at his comments regarding Sound.

That said, please know that you need to treat both camera AND SOUND with the same level of importance. Fail to do this and you're setting yourself up for failure, technically speaking.

Think of taking a half-day crash course in camera op'ing. Sounds rediculous doesn't it? Same goes for good production sound gathering.

If you can at all afford to do so, hire an experienced sound recordist. He/She will not only have the skills needed, but will also have the professional gear to accomplish the task at hand, knocking out problems such as wireless work, location issues, laving and booming and proper mixing and channel assignment for the greatest options in post. And in anything but the most controlled environment, an experienced sound person will be worth their weight in gold.


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Just for the record, I agree with the gist of Thomas' post: good sound IS just as important as good video.

That said – maybe on account of many years working in news where a sound person has become a luxury – I am convinced that in a variety of situations, especially such as controlled interviews as Darla seems to be intent on obtaining and some additional B-roll, one can manage without a sound person.

That's why I've insisted Darla should concentrate on her own tasks rather than "mess around" with the sound. It's much better to try to do one thing well – furthermore, paying attention to the interview will be complicated enough on its own for a beginner – than two things poorly.

Also, I find the idea (mentioned above) of hiring a sound person for half a day in order to learn the task a joke. One might as well go so far as to suggest: "Hire a camera person for a day to learn how to do that job as well."


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Thomas,

Re scanning, here are a couple of links you may find useful.

http://www.bosfcpug.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=73&Itemid=58

http://www.scantips.com/

http://www.scantips.com/basics1c.html

Re the moves part of your question.

Depending on the size of the original photos, if you have the opportunity, I don't see why you wouldn't want to shoot the photos yourself, at least wide & tight (focusing on different areas of the photo each time, if warranted) because there could be certain cases in which you might choose to use a simple cut instead of a move.

That said – and please note that my experience is limited to the use of only a few photos – I noticed that the most recent version of FCP allowed us to do any kind of move we were interested in and also gave us the possibility of controlling the speed of the move.


Erica Ginsberg
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Wolfgang and Thomas, just to clarify: I wasn't suggesting to Darla that hiring a soundman for half a day for training would transform her into a master sound mixer. What I was suggesting was that having someone show her the ropes of the equipment would help her feel more comfortable using it. The ideal situation, of course, would be to hire a professional and let the director focus her complete attention on directing. But, as Darla has indicated, that's not feasible right now, so we were all making suggestions as to how she can make it work the best under non-ideal circumstances. I totally agree that it's best not to skimp on sound. In fact, I think a good story with poorly shot video can survive better than a good story with poorly recorded sound.


Christopher Wong
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

ditto what erica said. i certainly didn't mean to imply that sound doesn't matter. but in very low-budget (or "no-budget") situations, someone has to do sound, and it honestly doesn't take a genius to learn the basics of holding a boom pole. to actually get superior sound, and to always stay out of the way of the cam op, and to avoid unsightly boom shadows on the subject – yes, these take months/years of experience to achieve. but you can learn the basics of being a boom op much faster than you can the basics of being a cam op (i.e. using manual focus, manual exposure, proper white balancing). this is not an "uninformed opinion" – this is just reality. and when someone, like darla, tells us that she doesn't have the time/resources to go hire a professional soundperson for her shoot, it's really not helpful for us to say "hire an experienced soundperson". if she could, she would. since she can't, let's just enable her to do the best she can.


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Guys,

I understand that everyone is trying to be helpful. That's what makes this place so special. Some people here have posted even on Christmas.

It may very well be that with more than 20 years experience as a news professional, some posts struck me as – involuntarily "la de da-ish" – or at least I fear that an unexperienced well-intentioned enthusiast might (mis)interpret them in such manner.

As a professional newsperson, the quality of my work was essential for me to make a living doing my "job." As a documentary filmmaker, I've learned that – for the moment at least – I'd be very lucky to make back the money I've invested in several "difficult" (by difficult I mean films that have been extremely diificult or impossible to distribute in Italy on account of the fact that they dealt with controversial events such as an anti-Berlusconi grassroots opposition movement).

In previous posts, I've also stressed the difficulty of working as a videojounalist referring to the need to perform many tasks (that used to be covered by a team of people) in often unpredictable and ongoing situations out in the field.

For this reason, I'm convinced that – as a general rule – it's extremely important for beginners to obtain proper training before going out in the field and to have "practised" everything in controlled situations at home. Likewise, I'm convinced one should (ideally) gains experience producing a series of 3-5 minute pieces before attempting to work on a long(er) format story.

In the case of sound, I've also been able to notice – as a result of practical exercises in professional training workshops that I've organized – that (with vary rare exceptions) most people need to be taught to "listen" while they record sound. Usually, although our ears capture all sorts of noises (unwanted sounds, like traffic noise)) along with a given sound, for example, a conversation we're trying to listen to out on the street, our brain acts as a filter, getting rid of mst or all of the unwanted noise and allowing us to follow the conversation. A microphone is a mechanical device that records sound in a given way (pattern) and the sound is recorded on tape, disc etc and then played back exactly as it was recorded (with only minuimum possibilities of filtering). I have had reasn to notice that even though they were wearing headphones, beginners failed to hear the background noise while they were recording on the street because they weren't listening to them; only after listening to the tapes in the classroom and being surprised by the amount of unwanted noise they'd recorded would they learn to listen while wearing headphones unstead of letting their brains do the usual filtering.

Likewise, I've learned that everyone needs to be taught to wear headphones at all times while recording because this allows one to verify that indeed we are recording usable sound while recording that crucial interview. I've seen several instances of people who weren't wearing headphones caught up in the thick of things and not notice that a mic cord had become unstuck or that a lav battery had died.

Since most of us, from what I've been reading here seem to be investing our own money in our projects, it seemed appropriate to inject a bit of caution in order to protect the investment in time and money of rookie enthusiasts like Darla and in order to allow them to avoid mistakes that could have been avoided or fixed in the field (thanks to proper planning or training) and that could have devastating results with regards to one's project: unusable recordings, for example.

I also believe that it's useful to teach beginners – along with the skills – a healthy dose of awe and respect for the work of the true professionals who, in extremely difficult conditions – often with so much more than just money at stake – go out and do a wonderful job in order to tell stories that might make a difference and help make the world a better place.


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Thomas,

re your scanning query, I suggest that you check with PF Bentley. PF is an extraordinary editor, actually a still photographer turned videojournalist.

PF belongs to the inner core group of Dirck Halstead's platypi – a growing group of still-photographers who are trained to become top-notch videojournalists: the group's website is

www.digitaljournalist.org

PF's contact e-mail is: "PF BENTLEY" <pf@pfpix.com>

I remember that on his old website (Hulaboy productions) he used to have a couple of examples of wonderfully edited stories based on stills edited to music.

His website is http://www.pfpix.com/HOME.html.

Ask him if you can see his videoclips about Bill and Hillary Clinton and Clinton's last week in office 2001. They were masterpieces.


Marianne Shaneen
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Thanks very much for the advice, Doug. Yes, that's what I keep hearing: 'there's no such thing as a standard contract'. Happy Holidays!


Thomas Beach
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Thank you, Wolfgang, for all of your input and links. I will indeed, check them out. I was under the impression that FCP could replicate camera moves etc. and will soon see for myself, as I intend to purchase Studio 2 in the next few weeks. I was just trying to avoid having to purchase yet another stills software program. As for shooting the stills myself, my access to these pictures is very limited and they are closely guarded by the archiveists. Additionally, they have offered to do the scans which would save me great amounts of time. And as there are thousands of pictures for me to go through and select, and given the 7 hour trip to the archives, anything I can do to speed things up for me while I am there is helpful. And if FCP can do the "moves", I will not be forced to make decisions at the time of photo acquisition. Thanks again for your help.

As for Darla's dilema, I too agree with Wolfgang that one must concentrate on one's specific job. All the more reason NOT to be diddling around with sound. And although it is true that many one-man-band operations work just fine, there is no reasonable person who would disagree that having the right professionals in each department will make a noticable difference in your end product.

Chris, I presume that if Darla did not have the budget to hire a professional cameraman, you would not be suggesting that she do it herself, or would you? I'm sure everyone here would be warning her not to move forward. No offense, but the mere fact that similar advice is not being offered regarding quality sound smacks of ignorance. Just because Darla can't afford to hire a sound person is no reason to advise her to blindly stumble forward. In fact it borders on irresponsibility. As for your assertion that it is a statement of fact that it's easier to learn how to use sound gear than it is a digital camcorder, I beg to differ. Give me an hour on any camera and I too could shoot material. In my mind, this is a fair comparison.

Please note that in my post I only made referrence to "good" production sound. If you feel your project's marketability can survive crappy sound, then by all means, go forward. There are examples of such films. One which comes to mind is, "Rockets Redglare!" (2003), which was an excellent doc with absolutely horrible, but barely passible production sound.

It is impossible for me to begin to explain here, the numerous pitfalls you may encounter with regard to sound issues and why a pro is desireable. So I won't.

It is my opinion that given the expenses involved in Darla's upcoming trip, that it is not adviseable to risk your budget and time on the chance that you will get good sound. Wait until you can hire a sound professional just as you waited until you could afford to hire an experienced cameraman. Anything less than this is a recipe for disappointment.


Christopher Wong
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

guess we'll have to agree to disagree for now...


Joe Moulins
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Thomas, if I were to follow your logic I'd never have made my first film. Or my second or third, for that matter.

If Darla couldn't afford a professional cameraman, I'd certainly advise her to pick up a camera and start practicing.

None of this is rocket science.


Darla Bruno
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Guess I'll chime in here.

The problem is this--and you can always return to my original post to see . . .

I came here with a dilemma that's very specific. I hired a dp who is mostly working with very little pay. I'm paying him a stipend and travel expenses. I like his work. As a favor, he was going to bring along a friend of his who is a professional sound person. That person is no longer available. I'm shooting in a REMOTE area of Italy and to hire someone right now would put me WAY over budget, and I couldn't shoot my trailer. The reason I'm going in January (and this is a set of complex decisions) is for a festival that only happens once every year and may not next year.

Without a sound person and with the following gear, what would you recommend, given that I'm tapped out on money (everything else is planned and fine):

Sennheiser Wireless Trio 100 G2 series (full audio kit with a lavalier and directional microphone).

I know fairly little about equipment, but I do know enough to know how important sound is. I never once doubted that. That's why I've come here with my dilemma.

At this point it is NOT realistic for me to hire a professional sound person. By holding a boom myself, I in no way have any less respect for the sound profession; it's just that given my circumstances, I have to look at all my options.

And while I will mostly be shooting b-roll and interviews, I may have a scenario with two people talking, with a woman moving around in a kitchen, with a bunch of people eating around a table, with someone slaughtering a pig. These will require boom sounds from what I understand.

If what you're saying, Thomas, is that I shouldn't shoot . . . Okay. That's one opinion. But others here are trying to be creative and resourceful given what I have to work with.

With all due respect -


Doug Block
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

thomas, call me irresponsible, but i'm with chris and joe (and darla) on this one. i'm not recommending darla monitor the audio – she has a camera person doing that. but pointing a shotgun mike at two people talking in a verite situation is something a beginner really can do (and, yes, actually think at the same time).

i gotta say, wolfgang and thomas, every time someone says you HAVE TO do something one way or the other, it gets my hackles up. there's usually a preferred way of doing it, for sure, but there's rarely a have to, especially in low or no-budget situations. okay, i guess if you're using a mini-dv camera you have to load a mini-dv tape or you're kinda up shit creek. but i think you know what i mean.


Christopher Wong
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

darla, you're going to be fine... don't be put off by those folks (well-meaning as they are) who tell you that you need perfect conditions or years of experience to start a project. mainly, you need a little humility, diligence to prepare and the willingness to learn – clearly, you've got that.

now stop wasting time in here (like the rest of us idiots), and keep chugging along...


Darla Bruno
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Okay, sorry to take up more space here, but I'm still back to my original dilemma. What would be best to bring in addition to what my DP has for sound:
(Sennheiser Wireless Trio 100 G2 series (full audio kit with a lavalier and directional microphone).)

And what would be the cheapest way of going about that?

Thanks, all!


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Darla,

Just for the record, I hope it's clear I wasn't knocking you, nor saying "not" to do your shoot.

I think I've made clear where I'm coming from in my earlier posts. In fact, I'm convinced that – if need be – you can certainly give a hand while shooting B-Roll type situations.

Doug, of course, flexibility is the name of the game.

If you check my posts, you'll see that I've written that (in my opinion) it would be best for Darla to concentrate on her specific tasks – i.e. asking questions and listening to the answers – DURING INTERVIEWS!


Darla Bruno
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

No worries, Wolfgang!


Wolfgang Achtner
Wed 26 Dec 2007Link

Darla,

will be out of pocket from Jan 10 thru 16, in US to complete shooting of a doc on young Italian composer/songwrite/singer who lives in NYC and has just published 2nd album.

Don't know when you'll be over here, but if you get into a bind or need to ask for advice or help while you're here, just gimme a buzz on my cell phone and I'll do what I can to assist you.

Good luck on yr shoot.


Riley Morton
Thu 27 Dec 2007Link

Thomas-
hope you are still checking here.
if so, yes, from version 1, Final Cut Pro has been able to do replicated 'camera moves' on any still image (or video image for that matter) – you can crop, scale up/down, move up/down and left right over time. it just takes 10 minutes learning about keyframing.
that said, its all digital, so it doesn't look like a imperfect human is shooting it organically, but rather that a computer is controlling the above factors digitally, which of course it is.
scan the files as big as you can, but at least 1000 pixels wide if you want to zoom on a 720p timeline, and it will look great.
IF you are going for that organic, imperfect look for your stills, shoot them yourself with a camera, or look into motion control.


Darla Bruno
Thu 27 Dec 2007Link

All right – now I'm going to just switch out of sound obsession for a while.

When I have interview subjects sign release forms, I should use the one I have that meets US standards, right? Not the one my DP has for Italy. I'll just have the US one translated?


Kurt Engfehr
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Darla- release forms are relevant to where you are based. if you plan on finishing your film in NJ, then a US form is fine, you don't need any Italian changes because the legal stuff will all be in the US. HOWEVER, jumping back to your sound issues(!), when traveling to foreign countries, you cannot take a wireless mic from the US. hopefully, your DP has sound gear that is adjusted to Italian broadcast specs.

as far as gear and especailly in regards to shotgun mics, i'd say, depending on how much you want to spend, get a Sennheiser ME-66 for $250 or a Sennheiser MK-416 for $1,200. the 66 is really good for the money, the 416 is really, really great, but costs.

as to how to use them, sometime i am the interviewer as well as the soundperson. for these situations, i use a hand unit which is basically a pistol grip with foam for the hand and a shock mount on the top for the mic. i can then, very easily deal with interviewing AND doing good sound. obviously, this doesn't work if one is running around a lot, but even then, if you stay close by the subject, it works fine.

i would try to avoid, at least in the beginning stages of your doc making, doing both boom and interviewing. that's hard. i've done it and it's tough. but if you have to, don't do mixing while you're at it, just do the boom and the questioning.

most DP's are adept at riding levels so unless you have more than 2 people or a big crowd scene to film, you, as the sound person, shouldn't need to deal with mixing the sound before it gets to the camera.

Edited Sat 29 Dec 2007 by Kurt Engfehr

Darla Bruno
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Thanks, Kurt! I'm actually even going to be going without a boom now! I'm all minimalist. My DP has a Sennheiser Wireless Trio 100 G2 Series (full audio kit with a lavalier and a directional microphone). If anything, I may just get a stand for it, but, well, that's that.

Now I'm onto my NTSC/PAL issue. If you know anything about that, feel free to e-mail me! I'm looking into it now. He's got a PD-170p, so it only shoots in PAL.


Kurt Engfehr
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

what's the question about the NTSC/PAL issue? you can edit PAL here in the US, but it's costly and complicated. since your DP is using a 170, i'd seriously think about converting the tapes to NTSC and editing with those.


Darla Bruno
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

All right, sorry to make this the "Darla show" – but here it is:

We'll probably get about 1/3-1/4 of the film shot on PAL--my footage, b-roll, interviews, and trailer. My DP's in Milan, and I'm in the States, so after shooting, we'll return to our respective countries. I'd like to do the editing with his help. So, he mentioned giving me DVDs with time codes.

I'm pretty sure I can edit on Final Cut Pro with PAL, right? If so, is it better just not to convert to NTSC? We can eventually move PAL to DVD (is that MP4)? So just two conversions (PAL – DVD) rather than three (PAL – NTSC – DVD).

Does that work? It's my understanding that converting to NTSC can be pricey (they charge per hour of footage, not per tape) and there can be glitches (with sound, so forth).

At any rate, some people have recommending skipping the whole issue and just renting/borrowing an NTSC camera, but at this point, I'm REALLY not into doing that. I hired my dp, and his equipment. I like his camera, and I'd like to just move forward with what we agreed on.

I'd love to hear any thoughts on the easiest way to do this. Ultimately, we'll put the trailer on . . . probably Quicktime and DVD (not really sure how all this works) and edit the footage to hold on to for when I have money to go back and shoot the rest of the film. And at that point, I can work in NTSC if this becomes nightmarish.


Eli Brown
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Hey Kurt, this is a little off topic, but why can't you take a wireless mic from the U.S. to Europe?


Kurt Engfehr
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

it's because different frequencies are used by different countries for different purposes, not that it won't work, but that it's illegal and sometimes just not practical. an example: say you want to use a US wireless in the UK, well, that would be a bad thing because in the UK, they use the same frequencies that we use for wireless microphones for their military and defense communications. you will be found out and they will not like it. i know a big-time pro-field audio guy that's got some of those wacky wirelesses that can get every frequency and he's got a book that lists every country and what frequencies are used for what activity. i'm not on his level. i usually just rent a wireless from a local place. saves me time and headache. also, when it breaks i have someone who can get me a new one.

Edited Sat 29 Dec 2007 by Kurt Engfehr

Marianne Shaneen
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Happy New Year everyone!
My question is about exclusivity agreements. I've looked around and cannot find a sample contract/agreement- it's important for one of the interviewees in my documentary to sign an exclusivity agreement, specifically that he won't appear in anyone else's documentary until mine is finished. Does anyone have any sample contract along these lines or any suggestions as to how to word such an agreement?
Many thanks in advance :)


Wolfgang Achtner
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Darla,

re the PAL/NTSC issue, don't worry about it now. You've already committed to your DP's gear, etc.

As I explained in my previous posts, there are many – all of them simple – ways to deal with this issue, LATER. Not least of all, the fact that a converter is extremely cheap nowadays.

That said, making a DVD has nothing to do with whether ot not your video was shot in NTSC or PAL. Just to give you an idea, the DVD player on any computer can play DVDs in PAL and/or NTSC.

What you decide to do will depend on other factors bu there is really no need to worry about it now.


Darla Bruno
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Marianne,

I have one I can e-mail you –

Darla


Marianne Shaneen
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Oh thanks, Darla, that would be awesome.
I'm at ms612ms at hotmail
thank you!


Darla Bruno
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Hi Marianne,

I tried e-mailing you at the address above, and sending you the form, but I just plain can't get through to hotmail anymore. Every hotmail address bounces back. So, if you have another address, I can e-mail you the release form. Otherwise, there's one here:


http://www.dfgdocs.com/Resources/Contracts_and_Downloads.aspx

HTH -


Marianne Shaneen
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Thanks, Darla.
I looked at the link you sent and could not find an exclusivity agreement (I've been using release forms but what I'm looking for is something that outlines an interviewee's exclusive involvement and guarantee that s/he won't appear in other docs)- is that what you were sending?
You can try mshaneen at earthlink dot net
Thanks so much, very kind of you!


Darla Bruno
Sat 29 Dec 2007Link

Hi again Marianne, sorry I misunderstood. I only have release forms.


Edwin Gailits
Mon 31 Dec 2007Link

I was recently asked by a friend for advice regarding film schools for their 16 year old son who wants find a school to study filmmaking.

The friend thought it was best to send their son to a summer program in New York City, either the New York Film Academy, or SOCAPA, as a good intensive introduction to filmmaking to see if this is really what they want to pursue.

I don't have any knowledge of these schools but thought some of those who contribute to this excellent forum may be able to offer advice or info.

Thanks in advance.


Rhonda Moskowitz
Wed 2 Jan 2008Link

Maybe York University in Toronto has ideas? They have a good film program.


Marianne Shaneen
Thu 3 Jan 2008Link

Hi Darla, thanks anyway :)


Edwin Gailits
Thu 3 Jan 2008Link

Thanks Rhonda – I'm somewhat familiar with the film schools in Canada, including York, Ryerson, Sheridan, Humber and post grad at the CDN Film Centre, as well as Concordia in Montreal, and Simon Fraser in Vancouver. But I'm not aware of any summer programs for high school aged students at these schools.

I'm looking for any first or second hand info/opinions on the NYC schools I mentioned.

Thanks.


Azad Jafarian
Fri 4 Jan 2008Link

I come from fiction film and I have never written or even seen a treatment for a documentary. Now I'm about to embark on my first documentary project and I have no idea what to do when I can't just make up characters and stories!

Can anyone share their treatments with me so that I get an idea what they're supposed to be like? Or any descriptions/links of how a documentary screenplay might look like would be great as well.

Thank you in advance...


Doug Block
Fri 4 Jan 2008Link

We just make it up as we go along, Azad. And I'm (mostly) not kidding.

Most filmmakers approach docs with (usually, but not necessarily) a strong idea of a story or situation or issue that they want to explore, and varying levels of research, which might include hanging out with the subjects for a period of time. But if there's something called a documentary screenplay I've never heard of it.

Which is the whole point. You can't possibly script documentaries, and you wouldn't want to. You put this inquiring energy out there and the universe conspires to give you great footage (or not).


Erica Ginsberg
Fri 4 Jan 2008Link

Azad, there are documentary screenplays for the kind of documentaries you might see on Discovery Channel or National Geographic – a science or history program, for example, where they basically know what they want to say and show and create the visuals around the script. But I think what Doug is referring to are more what we would call "creative documentaries." Certainly documentaries which rely heavily on observational or verite footage cannot be scripted in advance. But some filmmakers do find it helpful to put a film in script form once they have the footage as a means of organizing the information as they edit. Others work without a script and use other systems to organize the film.

While there is no rule in documentary of how to create this script that would correspond to Hollywood's rules of how to create a fiction screenplay, there are some rules of thumbs you might want to go by. I find it more helpful to use the 2 column approach with video on the left and audio on the right (possibly with a third column to denote tape info and timecode in/outs if you are actually editing to the script), though I have seen documentary scripts which look like fiction scripts too.

But to answer your original question which I think is really "How can I write down an idea of what my film will be when I don't know who my characters are yet or what will transpire?" that is really more what a treatment will achieve. Again, there is no right way of doing a treatment (though different funders may have specific elements they want in the treatment) and it will definitely change as you discover your characters and story. For now, it may suffice to write down what it is you want to say with your film, set the stage of where it is taking place, the kinds of characters and/or events you will be seeking out, and why you are the one to tell this story.


Darla Bruno
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

11th hour here . . . sorry to return to this subject, but I'm getting a bad feeling again about the NTSC/PAL issue. Maybe I should just put the money out now-up front-to rent an NTSC. We're supposed to shoot on a PD170p. I could get one in NTSC. But I'll have to rent it in Italy, prob. b/c I'll be gone a month (only shooting 2 weeks). I can probably rent one – have my dp rent one – from Milan or Rome even. . . right?

A little bit freaking out about it.

Edited Mon 7 Jan 2008 by Darla Bruno

Eli Brown
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

People have been shooting PAL and cutting in NTSCland for the years before 24p became en vogue, largely because of PAL's 25fps which looks far more cinematic. PAL has some other things going for it technically, too. But take a read through this article:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/pal_ntsc_conversion.html
and hopefully it might assuage some fears. Without knowing how you're intending on posting the footage (or viewing it), it's hard to know if this is going to be an enormous hassle for you or not. Also, if you're mixing and matching that could be time consuming (and may not look that great). Probably best that if you start in PAL, that you stay in PAL, that way you're only converting upon your final edit and not for all of the raw footage.

Also:
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/968020
http://www.2-popforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=161


Darla Bruno
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

Thanks, Eli. Essentially I want a trailer online and DVD. My DP is in Milan, and I'll be finding an editor here. I don't have software, so I hope it won't be a problem to find someone to edit PAL. Just want to compare the cost overall. i.e. rent a NTSC camera now or just go with what we have and essentially it'll be the same in the end (cost wise).

Thanks for all the resources here -


Wolfgang Achtner
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

Darla,

As I wrote you previously, this is no longer a big deal. If you read my previous post and you will notice that Eli is telling you as much.

If in doubt – especially if all your shooting will be in Italy – shoot in PAL.

Try to find NTSC gear but I doubt that it will be easy for you to find NTSC gear to rent cheaply (especially something like a PD170) for the simple reason that nobody would have any reason to use it; your best chance would be with an ex-network crew in Rome but, more likely than not, they'd only have expensive top-of-the-line Beat equipment.

There is one very simple solution: rent an HD camera. Many models have a PAL/NTSC switch. You could certainly find an appropriate HD videocamera to rent here in Italy. I had already pointed this out to you in my previous post but you'd insisted that you wanted to use your DP's camera.

As regards editing, with Final Cut Pro, for example, all this would entail is clicking a PAL setting vs clicking an NTSC setting. All you'd need to do is convert the final product at the end.


Azad Jafarian
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

Thank you Doug and Erica,

Sorry for the delay in checking back here. I appreciate your thoughts on this. You're right Erica, that is exactly what I wanted to know. I really don't know what funders expect. I guess this is something that comes with experience dealing with the pre-production aspects of the documentary film process.


Darla Bruno
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

Yes, Wolfgang, I got last-minute jitters. But I love my DP. He's perfect for this film, and so I don't want to throw him a new, unfamiliar camera. It's not been an easy decision for someone who doesn't know the tech stuff, but I'm learning with the help of all of you.

I'm anticipating what will happen when I get back. I can try to use a PAL camera as a deck. Clearly editing in FCP isn't an issue. I'm just trying to anticipate what's workable and the cost.

The Edit Center in New York (should I work there with someone or be referred to an editor through them) said I should have my tapes digitized and on a hard drive? I guess that's my understanding, so I'm trying to see, now, what my DP can leave me with that will make it easier for me to come back here and edit with someone in the States . . .


Christopher Wong
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

depending on how much footage you shoot in italy, you shouldn't need more than a 1-2 day rental of a deck. a dsr-11 should do the trick for you, and usually only costs around $50-75 a day to rent – if you rent over a weekend, you usually only have to pay for one day's worth. i imagine that renting a PAL camera would be significantly more expensive.

there are good editors everywhere, but probably only a few who are the best fit for your project. so don't just work with whomever the Edit Center has. put ads on craigslist, mandy.com, NYU film school, etc. and look at people's reels and experience to get a better feel for their work. definitely do an interview to judge if your personality will mesh with theirs. you don't want an overbearing personality who doesn't listen to your input...


Wolfgang Achtner
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

Darla,

Allow me to suggest you might want to pass by Barnes & Nobles and buy a text book or two, in order to familiarize yourself with all you'll need to do when you get back.

You should consider one or both of these: Barry Hampe, Making Documentary Films & Videos (my favorite) or Rabiger, Directing the Documentary. I'd also suggest one of these: Rice & McKernaan, Editing Digital Video or Button, Nonlinear Editing.

Second, if you do a quick Google Search you should be able to find a glossary of digital terms. Here I've done it for you.

http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic1/glosbold.htm

http://www.videoforums.co.uk/guide-glossary-77.htm

http://www.altera.com/end-markets/broadcast/glossary/bro-glossary.html

http://www.high-techproductions.com/glossary.htm

http://www.acvl.org/acvl_manual/video_terms.html

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/glossary/glossary.jhtml?id=0.1.4.15.20&lc=en

I'm going to make a note that you should read now or before you start anything when you get back. This regards editing, but I'm writing it here because you have a tendency to do things first and then ask for advice: WRONG WAY!!!!

After shooting, to "capture" your video, i.e. to pass your video from tapes onto a hard disk drive, you can use any PAL miniDV camera or a SONY DSR deck (PAL/NTSC switchable).

Regardless of whether you'll be editing in PAL or NTSC, you'll need to purchase a hard disk drive (this is where you store all your video and it can be attached or removed to any computer laptop or table top, as well as to the computer that you'll be using to edit. This allows your editor to work on other projects and allows you to have "portability." Since external hard drives are so cheap, I'd suggest buying a 250 GB or 500 GB hard disk drive. Lacie is a good brand and these drives have always worked well for me. You could also look for a hard drive that has a ventilator. In any case, a top quality 500GB disk drive will cost you less than US$200,00. This is enough storage to store the edited version and all the media (the video and audio files that you have captured) of at least two documentaries.

One last suggestion: I always capture ALL the media in low resolution at first for the various edits (you will get slightly lower quality video and audio this way, but you'll save a lot of space on the hard disk) and re-capture the media (with Media Manager) at Standard or High Definition (whatever the maximum resolution level or your shooting material is, in your case, SD) only AFTER I've completed the final cut (and adjusted audio and video levels, added subtitles, graphics, etc.). This won't mean anything to you now, but your editor will understand.

Please note that the "logging phase" is associated witht the capture phase, in fact I (and many others) log and capture together, whereas others prefer to capture first and then log. "Logging" is the procedure whereby you list and describe every single shot on a tape. You want to make sure you use stars (for example) to mark your best video and you'll want to take care that you also note your best nat sound.
You will group similar shots in "bins." You can learn the basics of editing – i.e. the part YOU need to know, on a good text book and working with your editor.

Please note that this – LOGGING – is the most important phase – and the one that will determine the edit and the final outcome of your documentary. You must have the patience to log every shot correctly. This procedure allows you to see what (video, shots) you have available and to memorize your video (don't ask me how it happens because I don't know, but the logging process allows me to memorize, effortlessly, every single shot in 60 or more hours of video).

The logging process is something that you and your editor must do TOGETHER, so you both get to know all the video that is available. This allows you to map out your story and write an outline and will also allow you, during the edi,t to build sequences (because you know all the video that you have and where it is located).

It's easier than it sounds – and fun, at least for me – but make sure that you do some studying BEFORE you start any work when you return home otherwise you'll never be in control of what you're doing.

Also, Christopher has made a very good point. An editor is NOT to be considered like another piece of hardware. A good editor makes the difference, aside from the fact that he/she can save you non-withstanding mistakes you may have made. You should try to find someone who has edited one or more stories, similar to yours in a way that you like. Especially in your case where you know zip, a more-experienced editor will save your behind, teach you as you go along and make magic (if the material you've shot allows her/him to do so). I'm certain that you'll be able to get many suggestions regarding experienced editors from the members of D-word and/or asking for help from members of the IDA (International Documentary Association).

If anything, this is where you need to spend some extra money. A good editor is worth every cent and in your case they will also be acting as your producer, teacher, babysitter and fairy godmother. A top notch editor can make a great doc (if your material permits it) or at least save your butt and carve out something passable if you have the minimum required elements. Don't try to save the odd few bucks here because you'd be screwing yourself!


Darla Bruno
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

Excellent, you guys. Thank you SO much!


Wolfgang Achtner
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

For the log and capture process, Erica Ginsburg has a DSR11 deck; maybe you can rent hers!


Erica Ginsberg
Mon 7 Jan 2008Link

Wow, Wolfgang posted just before me. I do have a DSR-11, but it's in use right now at my editor's as I plod along on my edit, so not available for rental unfortunately. Plus, it would be much easier for you to find one to rent in New York which is closer to you.

I was going to add that the DSR-11 deck which Chris recommends renting (and which is preferable to using the valuable heads of your camera for logging/capturing) can be used for PAL DV footage, but you will need to make sure your editor has a PAL monitor. As others have said much better than I ever could, you are probably better off picking either PAL or NTSC for shooting (or, if you have to do some of each, get the tapes converted to your preferred editing format before logging so they are all consistent). I produced a project which had both NTSC and PAL footage. We ended up editing and outputting in NTSC, but got the tapes converted BEFORE we started editing.

Edited Mon 7 Jan 2008 by Erica Ginsberg

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